Page 1311 - Kirin's Empire, Part 3

12th Dec 2019, 5:00 AM in Intermission 13
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Kirin's Empire, Part 3
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Author Notes:

Newbiespud 12th Dec 2019, 5:00 AM edit delete
Author: SanneNC

Guest Author's Note: "Man, my players love using archetypes.

Some of you may have noticed that this campaign uses Pathfinder and not any of the D&D editions. I know it doesn't always have the best reputation, but it's the system I'm most familiar with, and I didn't know how to translate any of my players' weird character creation choices to other systems. I think it's just more fun to keep it like this.

Also, yes, one of my players did convince me to let him play a synthesist summoner, using the reasoning stated above. I regretted that pretty early on and I've been trying to readjust the difficulty rating for my encounters ever since. Oddly enough, he's still not the most broken character in the party."

Notice: Guest comic submissions are open! Guidelines here. Deadline: January 27th, 2023.



TenMihara 12th Dec 2019, 5:29 AM edit delete reply
As a Pathfinder mainstay... I recognize all of these classes and archetypes, yay!
DeadPhoenix 12th Dec 2019, 8:02 AM edit delete reply
Hah. Same for me.
albedoequals1 12th Dec 2019, 5:30 AM edit delete reply
Not sure what reputation you mean. Pathfinder is where the fans of of D&D 3.5 went when D&D 4e turned out to be a travesty. It's still the most flexible system, if a bit unwieldy at times.
Digo 12th Dec 2019, 5:45 AM edit delete reply
The rep I got from it was that it made the feat lists unwieldy and didn't resolve the "linear fighter quadratic wizard" power issue. But that's been an issue with the D&D family of systems since forever.
SanneNC 12th Dec 2019, 7:19 AM edit delete reply
Could just be that I've had bad luck, but there have been a handful of occasions where I mentioned to someone that I use pathfinder and they sort of rolled their eyes at me. I've also seen more than a couple people poking fun at it online. Maybe I just have the bad fortune of always coming across the jerks.
albedoequals1 13th Dec 2019, 11:38 AM edit delete reply
People poke fun at Pathfinder because it's well known. The only systems that don't get jabbed are the ones nobody has heard of :p
SanneNC 13th Dec 2019, 5:26 PM edit delete reply
Fair enough, it's just the only system I have any real experience with, so I guess I have a slightly skewed perspective
terrycloth 12th Dec 2019, 11:08 AM edit delete reply
It takes all the stuff that was getting bad enough in 3.5 that people wanted a new version and doubled down. It's like the player power fantasy version of 3.5.

Which doesn't mean it's not fun. *shrug* 3.5 and variants are all about becoming a crazy superhero.

And it did solve the 'fighters are useless' problem by making them almost as broken as wizards.
andreas002 12th Dec 2019, 5:39 AM edit delete reply
Synthesist gets a bad rep, but hilariously it's actually a lot weaker than a basic Summoner. By turning your summon into a bodysuit, it misses out on the main advantage of the Summoner, which is having 2 sets of actions, letting you cast a spell and full attack in the same turn.

Summoners in general are strong, but an optimized Wizard still beats an optimized Summoner (especially if the Wizard takes up painting).
However, while summoners have a lower power ceiling compared to full-casters, they also have a much higher power floor. There's a lot less you can do wrong, so an unoptimized Summoner will beat just about any other unoptimized class.

That aside... Pathfinder is basically D&D 3.75. It made a bunch of improvements over D&D 3.5, while keeping the core intact. It mainly got popular because of people disliking the playstyle of D&D 4e, which can feel a bit too much like a video game.
Vegetalss4 12th Dec 2019, 7:50 AM edit delete reply
Yep, also worth nothing that "officially banned" doesn't actually means "officially banned" just that it's banned in pathfinder society (their adventure league/living campaign equivalent), which isn't because they are broken as in too powerful, but because they are too unclear in how they work for something like that where you can't leave it to individual GMs to make ad-hoc rulings for major character aspects.
For instance it is unclear what happens if the eidolon ever loses all it's temporary hit points, specifically how exactly it can get any back with a handful of competing interpretations. Any of them would do fine for a given campaign but in PFS they want consistency and thus the mess doesn't really work.
terrycloth 12th Dec 2019, 11:16 AM edit delete reply
Summoners are generally 'juggernaut chained to squishy caster'. Synthesist gets rid of the squishy caster.

Optimized eidolons with enough time to self-buff are completely and utterly insane fountains of damage that ignore basically everything the enemies try to throw at them. I'm talking 11 attacks per round, eight of which are primary attacks at full base attack, with +40 to-hit and +50 damage or something in that general area.

I'd believe there are worse shenanigans that wizards can get up to but I was playing the thing and I couldn't really argue against it being shenanigans.
dzonewolf 12th Dec 2019, 5:15 PM edit delete reply
Yeah, built a summoner who rode his Huge Eidolon into battle, the Eidolon had 10 arms. Ten appropriately sized Sawtoothed Sabres. Three attacks with each. I showed it to my 5e DM and he told me that's why he doesn't do Pathfinder.
Teatime42 13th Dec 2019, 1:37 AM edit delete reply
With manufactured weapons, you would have been limited to you base iterative attacks only. Even with multi weapon fighting or two weapon fighting, that's not the 30 you described. Each arm does not receive its own series of attacks independent of the others.
Vegetalss4 13th Dec 2019, 3:40 AM edit delete reply
They would all 30 attacks if they also had improved weapon fighting and greater two weapon fighting.
That would depend on reading the rules such that multi-weapon fighting replacing two-weapon fighting for creatures with more than 2 arms means that they can take two-weapon fighting (or alternatively on them spending a "wasted" feat on also taking two-weapon fighting)
Of-course in that case they'd both -7 to ten of the attacks and -12 to ten more which might make it a bit hard to hit
Teatime42 14th Dec 2019, 10:35 AM edit delete reply
Multiweapon Fighting
Prerequisites: Dex 13, three or more hands.
Benefit: Penalties for fighting with multiple weapons are reduced by –2 with the primary hand and by –6 with off hands.
Normal: A creature without this feat takes a –6 penalty on attacks made with its primary hand and a –10 penalty on attacks made with all of its off hands. (It has one primary hand, and all the others are off hands.) See Two-Weapon Fighting.

Each arm past the first counts as an offhand, multiweapon simply reduces the penalty, and counts as two weapon fighting if you have more than two arms. It doesn't give you a full set of iterative attacks for each arm.

Your manufactured weapon attacks are not calculated in that manner. You receive your normal iterative attacks. With two weapon fighting or it's analogues (Multiweapon, flurry, other flurries, etc.), You can receive up to 3 offhand attacks (though the first one you could get without those tests, just with a large negative), and with speed/haste, another mainhand attack.

In Pathfinder, the number of arms you have (with a few specific racial exceptions who have additional abilities) doesn't change the number of manufactured weapon attacks you have. That is entirely based off of BAB, and the action economy. Natural attacks are a different beast, but eidolons have a limit to those.
ANW 12th Dec 2019, 5:39 AM edit delete reply
What are your first impressions of these characters?
FanOfMostEverything 12th Dec 2019, 6:47 AM edit delete reply
Ah, Pathfinder, my usual system of choice. Though I did play some of a 5e Ravnica campaign and found the system enjoyable. Still prefer PF, though, especially given how much I've spent on sourcebooks. :P
CrowMagnon 12th Dec 2019, 7:19 AM edit delete reply
The best and longest campaigns I've played have always been Pathfinder, and I like the archetypes. In Carrion Crown I was a chirurgeon alchemist, and in Hell's Rebels I'm playing a constable cavalier.

It's kind of funny because before we started HR, my GM was trying to dissuade me from taking the cavalier class because he was afraid I wouldn't be able to keep up. By this point the constable archetype, along with Order of the Shield and a focus on grappling feats makes my character great for locking down a target that's Large or smaller, and there are times when I've been out-damaging the brawler.
SanneNC 12th Dec 2019, 7:21 AM edit delete reply
WHOOPS forgot to mention in comic that Ibrahim is also an Aasimar bard!
you know that guy 12th Dec 2019, 9:03 AM edit delete reply
Half-orc, half-elf, etc.

What's the other half, earth pony?
SanneNC 12th Dec 2019, 9:42 AM edit delete reply
More or less. I figure earth ponies are a good stand in for humans in this sort of setting.
Malroth 12th Dec 2019, 1:06 PM edit delete reply
Banned because it's too broken in the sense that the class doesn't mechanically work as intended not that it is too powerful, being the weakest summoner archetype by a large margin.
Composer99 12th Dec 2019, 1:18 PM edit delete reply
D&D 4e for the main campaign, 5e for the "Degrassi: The Next Generation" Young 6 campaign, and now PF1 for this side campaign? Whew!

Also, interesting that of the players, the main campaign DM is the one who <i>didn't</i> say anything about their build.
SanneNC 12th Dec 2019, 3:40 PM edit delete reply
That was purely a mistake on my part because I plum forgot to have them say it. Ibrahim is supposed to be an Aasimar bard.
aylatrigger 12th Dec 2019, 3:33 PM edit delete reply
Ooh, I've used some of those! ...Like I had a half faerie-dragon summoner synthesist...
And other summoner synthesists. I like broken classes. And I have done a few oracles... And godlings who steal stuff from oracle... One oracle probably could have beaten the summoner synthesists. Technically that was a Spheres Oracle/Elementalist (Spheres of Power) character.
DarthMalice 12th Dec 2019, 5:47 PM Broken Class edit delete reply
Legit surprised no one picked Magus Kensai- now THAT'S a powerful class even by Pathfinder standards. All the benefits of being an anime samurai with all the benefits of magic and no drawback
Prince-Chrom 12th Dec 2019, 9:21 PM edit delete reply
What Curse does the Oracle have? I can tell not the blindness one, but that leaves a lot of options.
SanneNC 13th Dec 2019, 4:45 AM edit delete reply
Her curse is Haunted and her portent is Whimsy!
aerion111 12th Dec 2019, 11:57 PM edit delete reply
Synthesist Summoners, like Dragonwrought Kobolds, need you to be willing to go 'hah, no' during the character creation progress. There may be other advantages to the Synthesist archetype (there certainly doesn't seem to be to the Dragonwrought. Pun Pun doesn't count, and I don't remember if he even has to be Dragonwrought) but they can break the balance before the first session by getting free stat-points. Dragonwrought Kobolds don't get penalties for age, so you can have an ancient, venerable Dragonwrought with free mental stats. Synthesists override their base (physical) stats, so basically get no penalties for low physical stats. I've been guilty of this myself - In the Dragonwrought case, it was quite intentional and I told the GM up front that I'm willing to adjust the age, but I felt that a Kobold was so under-statted that +1 to mental stats is entirely fair, and if anything I'd have pushed for +2 if I wasn't worried it'd get denied. Synthesist... Well, look, my premise was a weak girl, orphaned after running from an arranged marriage (one that'd almost certainly have been better than living in the streets, or even, as the game started, joining a pirate band), who managed to summon an Eidolon around herself. I gave her the stats of a young, malnourished girl, and I gave the Eidolon the stats of a frontline fighter. Turns out, that means you get an average of like +4 to all physical stats. In my defense, I was more concerned with how I was going to get passive waterbreathing and swimming abilities, since that was my whole point of playing a Synthesist in an aquatic campaign. I didn't think too hard about the stats, beyond 'eh, it'll be fine, I'll be in combat mode in battle'
you know that guy 14th Dec 2019, 12:15 AM edit delete reply
The best way to play Synth Summoner is a transforming magical girl
Guest 16th Dec 2019, 10:36 AM edit delete reply
Mine was Shippo from Iny Yasha
Solitary Performance 13th Dec 2019, 9:04 AM edit delete reply
The biggest chuckle I have about people's opinions on Pathfinder, is that that is where an official third-party setting brings ponies as PCs; fittingly, it's named Ponyfinder. Those familiar with it from the kickstarters (especially the original, "Ponies for Pathfinder" that had to get renamed as per Piazo's rules on naming) might recognize my handle from there, as I am the original Solitary Performance (accept no substitutes, unless they're provided by a DM).
albedoequals1 13th Dec 2019, 11:47 AM edit delete reply
"Official" might be a bit of a stretch. They are an attempt at balanced additions, but some parts are better than others. My gaming group has been using "Paizo plus Ponyfinder" as the allowed source books for years now, and there are a few things in Ponyfinder we had to ban or rework to make them balanced, but on the whole it has been mostly helpful.

(Hi Solitary, I was Brownie and Scarlet, if you remember them)
keybounce 7th Jan 2020, 6:36 PM edit delete reply
So lets see:

Twilight is the GM
Applejack is the heavy duty earth pony horse
Rarity is the beauty monk
Rainbow Dash is the awesome battlemage with movement armor
Pinkie Pie is the colorful friendship (inspiration) and selfish ... umm, what is a dwarven cavalier? Isn't that horse riding calvary? Like charge attacks? For a heavy dwarf type character?

... Mounted heavy fighters doing a charge.

Fluttershy is ... really, a callback to fruitbat fluttershy?

And the previous GM is playing a story teller :-)